#20 🤔 The PM Interview and Emotional Regulation Part 2 (Outbound)

Reframing interviews as opportunities to share who you are and learn more about what you want.

I went with mountain theme photos this week.

Part 10 of the Product Manager Interview and Executive Function (EF) Series. Scroll to the bottom to see the domains of EF I’ll be covering in no particular order.

1. The PM Interview and Executive Function Overview

2. Task Initiation

3. Flexible Thinking

4. Self Monitoring Part 1

5. Self Monitoring Part 2

6. Planning and Prioritization

7. Organization (Part 1 Feelings)

8. Organization (Part 2 Strategies)

9. Emotional Regulation (Part 1 Accessibility)

10. Emotional Regulation (Part 2 Outbound)

🌋Takeaways

• Reframe interview practice and interviews as learning exercises, instead of judgments of your abilities.

• Focus your interview preparation and experience on answering these 3 questions to harness your emotions:

  • What is your mission?

  • Do the challenges of the company or the people you meet excite you?

  • Do the people you meet recognize and need your gifts?

• You don’t have direct control over whether you get an offer. However, you do have control over identifying, sharing, and working towards getting the job you want.

• Outbound Product Managers are product managers who are primarily focused on go-to-market activities and customer interactions.

• Reminder mantra: Be Bold, Be Fearless, Be You

🐼Learn more about ADHD Coaching

⭐Introduction

In part 1, I talked about being fearless in an interview when I already had domain expertise for a role. n part 2, I tell a story of what happened when I was underprepared and didn’t have domain expertise.

It’s easier to be fearless when you are an expert on a subject. There’s a sense of power and safety for your emotions when you’re the expert in the room. You feel needed and your ADHD likes to be needed. In my second interview, I was not the expert in the room. I was interviewing for a position for which I had the individual skills but not the direct experience. In addition, it was a role up a level from my last title. I was out of my element and vulnerable. It was a situation ripe for shame, regret, and disappointment topped with the failure-flavored cherry that is a no-offer. Something unexpected happened instead. My fearless self didn’t crumple when I responded poorly to a case question. Instead, it held strong when it came face to face with my shortcomings. I became too curious to learn more about what the other person had to share with me to think about my poor answer. The outcome didn’t matter. I had learned to “fail” an interview without the emotional burden of fear, shame, and regret.

A woman is shown jumping between two rock cliffs. I learned to jump in the face of failure.

🚀Outbound product management

The second interview was for an outbound PM role. “Outbound Product Managers are product managers who are primarily focused on go-to-market activities and customer interactions…Outbound Product Managers (‘OPMs’) are typically focused on a portfolio of products, engaging with customers and prospects to understand how their needs are being met and identifying opportunities to evolve the product portfolio.” I had never heard of it before. As a former sales engineer, the voice of the customer PM, and horizontal PM, the role seemed like a good fit.

Things had been going well after 5 rounds of interviews and I thought I was done. To my relief, no case questions had come up. Then a surprise round 6 interview got scheduled with a new leader for the team. My shame and fear of case questions returned. I thought, “Maybe I should practice some AI-related case questions since it’s popular right now”. I didn’t practice. The chances an SVP would ask a question like that is low. I’ll bring my fearless self and see what happens.

Me staring at the edge of doing a case interview. A man stands alone on a mountain cliff looking down below under a pink sky.

💀When fearless meets a case interview question

I showed up, we made small talk and I gave a fearless description of the type of PM work I’ve done and what work I want to do. We connected, and I felt good. Then they asked, “How would you use generative AI to increase revenue?”. “Well, shit” was my first thought. Then my now 80% fearless, 20% panicked brain asked how they wanted me to answer the question. My ADHD honesty kicked in, “I have deep anxiety with case interview questions. Do you want me to ask in the CIRCLES format? Or do you want to have an informal talk?” I tried to recreate the open environment I had from the interview one.

In an unexpectedly kind way, they said “I don’t even know what CIRCLES is, let’s just talk.” I took a pause and despite their best help, I came up with a bad answer anyway. When I finished, I said, “wow, that was bad”. They laughed in a way that I think they were happy to hear I had the self-awareness to know that it was bad. Before moving on. I then asked if I could state a real-world answer on how I have generated new revenue from products. I told my story and at least personally, I recovered. I know I have done and can do the work in the question. However, my emotional regulation from ADHD interferes with how I articulate my answers. At least I found a way to show I wasn’t a complete idiot.

😂More important answers and questions

We spent the rest of the interview going over routine behavioral questions but one stuck out. They asked me about how I made a big decision. I described being laid off and wondering if I should still be a PM. My journey of self and skill evaluation led me to where I am today. Not the traditional answer. They listened thoughtfully and kindly. They responded, “That is a wonderful answer. That is the more important answer in life. However, I need one in an enterprise setting”. We laughed. I might have said the wrong thing but, they saw me.

The trust we had established allowed me to approach the end of our interview with a genuine curiosity to learn more about outbound product management. I didn’t try to quickly end the conversation and sulk away as I have in the past. Instead, I saw it as an opportunity to learn as much as I could about outbound product management. I put my fear of being rejected aside and committed to learning over fear. I was too busy trying to learn to think about the outcome. The outcome didn’t matter anymore though. I have no regrets if or when the no-offer comes because I fearlessly showed up and learned something new. I asked big questions and I got big answers. I’ll use those answers to get closer to my next dream job.

I stand atop the mountain with a message that interviewing can be a better experience for everyone. A person stands alone on a mountain top in a yellow hoodie and blue jeans overlooking the ocean under a blue sky with clouds.

🖼️Reframing the interview

The two interviews taught me I could empower my emotions by reframing job interviews as learning opportunities instead of measures of success. I’ve developed the self-awareness of what I want out of a job and I find strength in sharing that vision in the interview. Interview practice has become an exercise for me to be more aware of my skills and grow them the way I want. Not the drudgery of practice questions I hate. I’ve overcome the anxiety of “failing” because no matter the outcome of the interview, I’m going to walk away knowing a little more than when I started.

Here’s a starter guide to developing your fearless self. These questions can be used by the interviewer and interviewee.

• What is your mission?

  • What do you want to be doing day to day? If you have ADHD, you probably have the superpower to learn anything you’re engaged with. What do you want to be engaged with?

• Do the challenges of the company or the people you meet excite you?

  • The wrong challenge or small challenges often illicit small/negative feelings and answers. Did you fail at the question because weren’t prepared, or was it a boring question? Engaging challenges bring out the best of your ADHD.

• Do the people you meet recognize and need your gifts?

  • You want to be around others that draw the best out of you. How did you feel at the end of each discussion? They might have been nice, but do you get excited by the thought of learning with them? Do you feel safe failing with them?

You don’t have direct control over whether you get an offer. But you do have control over defining, sharing, and working towards getting the job you want.

✨Conclusion

My 2 interview experiences forever changed how I frame job interviews. For the first time in my life, I didn’t feel like a failure or shame. I didn’t ruminate on what I could have done better. Instead, I celebrated what a big life experience this was for me. I could have done more research into outbound product management but I don’t regret my performance. I don’t have any job offers yet. I found something more important instead. I found my fearless self that is honest, kind, and self-aware. And I’m on a mission to surround myself with people I can learn from on the same mission as me. Maybe it’s as an ADHD coach or maybe it’s as a PM. I don’t know yet but I’m having fun learning how to find it out.

Be bold, Be fearless, Be you.

Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily: and why older persons, especially if vain or important, cannot learn at all. Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer injury to one’s self-esteem. -Dr. Thomas Szasz

🐼Ready to be fearless?

⏭️Next Week

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A wheel with 10 domains of executive function: organization, attention and focus, impulse control, time-keeping, planning and prioritization, self-monitoring, working memory, flexible thinking, emotional control, task initiation.