#13 The PM Interview and Flexible Thinking

How to follow your anxiety to find your authentic self.

I don’t want to read a story about emotional regulation, I just want strategies dammit.

Part 3 of 11 of the Product Manager Interview and Executive Function (EF) Series. Scroll to the bottom to see the domains of EF I’ll be covering in no particular order.

1. The PM Interview and Executive Function Overview

2. Task Initiation

3. Flexible Thinking

4. Self Monitoring Part 1

5. Self Monitoring Part 2

6. Planning and Prioritization

7. Organization (Part 1 Feelings)

8. Organization (Part 2 Strategies)

The Scientific Meaning of Flexible Thinking

Flexible thinking is the ability to adapt our behavior and emotions in response to the environment. It involves using working memory, shifting your attention and frame of reference, and using reasoning and planning skills. It allows you to modify thinking and regulate emotion based on a change in expectations and/or demands.

Less scientifically speaking, flexible thinking enables us to go with the flow with a change by keeping our emotions proportional to the stimulus and allowing rational thinking and behavior.

Introduction

I tend to think of myself as a self-aware, emotionally balanced person. That I can contain my emotions to calmly evaluate a situation, and make rational decisions in light of unexpected events. I think I’m good in a crisis. I’m the PM you call when the house is on fire. I held my shit 💩 together when faced with a system-wide platform failure impacting global Amazon delivery services. My “Instantpots are more than just for rice, Rawi” teacher and teammate Anika and I rebuilt the platform overnight while simultaneously managing panicked customer tickets from all over the world. Twice. It sucked. I ignored the screaming voice of “you’re gonna die” while fighting in a bar in Thailand. These experiences, however, did not prepare me to manage the extreme emotions I feel when I think of the PM case study interview. In trying to figure out why I learned I don’t have a skills problem, I have an emotional problem with flexible thinking.

Search your feelings

The same event in different contexts can cause very different emotions. In my case, I can be anxious when I’m the interviewee or engaged when I’m the interviewer. The case interview questions are my biggest anxiety trigger. It’s when you’re asked an abstract question on how to design or measure something. It is an exercise to demonstrate how you approach problem-solving aka flexible thinking. They are often types of weird questions my inattentive type of ADHD loves. Yet the context in which I have to answer them generates opposite outcomes.

• If I was sitting at a bar and someone asked me how to estimate how many cups of beer 🍺 are poured in my city, I would have fun trying to come up with different ways to figure that out. I like taking inputs from various teams and customers to design new products and businesses. It’s one of my favorite parts of being a PM.

• Sit me on a Zoom call with a stranger or two, then ask me to estimate the number of coffee cups ☕ poured in my city with a blank whiteboard app, and I would struggle to come up with a coherent strategy.

Same person. Same skills and abilities. Drastic outcomes due to context and emotional state. This could happen to anyone, ADHD or not. However, when you have ADHD your emotions can be amplified non-proportionally to what’s happening. Those overwhelming feelings can drive actions that aren’t in line with your intentions. This is how flexible thinking impairment gets you in trouble.

How I feel when I fail

Here’s my chain of events after the last time I failed an interview at the case study stage. I was asked to “design an alarm clock”.

1. Panic and fear. “Fuckkkkkkkk”. “I’m not really a PM”

2. Doom that I’ll never be a PM again and have to flip Dick’s burgers for health insurance. (Dick’s is a local burger chain known for cheap burgers and treating their staff and community well)

3. Self-disgust for having tried something I knew I was going to fail at.

4. Resignment to having failed again.

5. Shame.

6. Alcohol.

7. Shame.

8. Avoid practicing until it became an issue. And more shame.

9. Acceptance and learning from the experience after good doses of exercise, medication, talking to friends, therapy, meditation, writing a blog, practicing with strangers (Thanks Ankitha!), and bourbon.

Not exactly the most fun experience but hey, at least you can learn and laugh from my pain.

This would hit harder for me if he looked like my Chinese mom.

Skipping to the happy part

When I look at this list, 2 things jump out.

1. These are all emotional responses to a skills-based challenge. I didn’t disparage my intellectual skills to answer the question. I disparaged myself for failing to do something I knew I could do. More practice would have helped but that’s always the case

2. I could have skipped steps 1-8 and still had the same results from step 9. I didn’t need to allow myself to drown in shame and despair in order to learn. I could have gotten to step 9 with just a little bourbon, and a run, and been fine.

The solution is not to suppress your feelings in order to skip steps. Suppressing feelings and not giving yourself the space to process what you’re feeling will only worsen your emotional regulation. You’re only adding fuel to a bomb that will eventually go off. Also, it’s almost impossible for most of us not to feel something after a disappointing event. We’re human after all.

Instead, I learned to take the time to listen to my feelings of fear, anxiety, doubt, etc to find out what I was really feeling or wanting. The urge to run away, drink alcohol, do nothing, or wallow in shame is avoidant behavior resulting from choosing to not listen to what your mind wants. Anxiety can be a symptom of knowing you’re doing something that might not align with what you really want.

What’s the root of my anxiety?

My biggest fear is experiencing the trauma of working in the wrong role again. I learned that when I’m in a place that doesn't fit my skillset, I can be miserable. You can ask a race car driver to drive a bus but it’s gonna suck for everyone involved.

My case interview anxiety is a symptom of my greater fears. I’m anxious about bringing my authentic self to an interview. Do I be upfront with my ADHD diagnosis? Do I tell them that my last job was one of the most difficult experiences of my life and left me questioning everything about myself? What if they think my thought process doesn’t live up to the hype of being an ex-Amazon PM? I’ve been trying to suppress these feelings for the last 3 months. I think it’s why I started this blog. I was tired of holding it in. The PM case interview is the last area I need to learn to bring out my true self. Once I can do that, I’m pretty sure I can get a job flipping burgers or being a PM.

Conclusion

Flexible thinking is a fluid mix of emotions and intellect that drive our behaviors. As a PM (or tech worker) you navigate complicated questions every day. You put in plenty of intellectual hours of practice by virtue of what you do for a living. You’re probably not putting in the practice hours with your feelings and desires though. One of the powers of ADHD is when you find the perfect thing, you go all in. Make sure you dedicate some time to listening to yourself to find that perfect thing. Your thoughts and skills will take care of the rest.

Strategies to regulate your flexible thinking skills

Get different perspectives on your challenge. I talked about my interview fears with product managers, friends, strangers, and my neighbors. Most of the PMs I talked to said to practice, practice. Get out of that pool. If you already practicing, you probably have an emotional and not skills challenge. Listening to different perspectives helped me unpack my anxiety and eventually led to my insight. I learned the most from my mindfulness expert and Amazon leader neighbor. I’ll have mindfulness practices in future issues.

It’s OK to be mad, but you can’t be mean. Including being mean to yourself. It’s ok to get pissed off about an unexpected thing someone said at work or how a project went. Your feelings are your feelings. What’s not OK is to be mean to others or yourself. Being mean can impair your ability to get help and reduce the trust others have in you. You might get the action you want by being mean but probably at the cost of trust or empathy. Be kind. Ask for a timeout if you need to.

Being mean leads to suffering.

The adage “strong opinions loosely held” is a learned practice, not an inherent one. It’s harder to have “loosely held” opinions when your ADHD tells you to panic at the first sign of criticism. Recognizing and regulating emotions that come with a sudden change or criticism is learned over time. If someone ever tells you the phrase at work, thank them and remind them it’s a learned trait just like learning to listen to feedback.

Recognize that anxiety is a part of rigid thinking styles. Be empathetic to yourself and to those who experience anxiety and recognize what they say or do might at the moment not align with what they actually think.

Is the person being defensive? Find a different time and context to discuss what you want. Try to meet the other person in a space they feel safe to enable them to express their true thoughts. Walking discussions are great for ADHD’ers as physical activity can calm anxiety.

I’ll let Lizzo tell you I’m ready to share my authentic self

Girl, I'm 'bout to have a panic attack

I did the work, it didn't work, ah, ah (mm, mm)
]That truth, it hurts, goddamn, it hurts, ah, ah (goddamn, it hurts)
That lovey-dovey shit, was not a fan of it (uh-uh)
I'm good with my friends, I don't want a man, girl
I'm in my bed, I'm way too fine to be here alone (too fine)
On other hand, I know my worth, ah, ah
And now he callin' me (rrr), why do I feel like this?
What's happenin' to me? Oh, oh, oh

Next week

Self-Monitoring as a PM in a world with a thousand fires.